Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - Page 8 - Never Forgotten: a Foster's Home Community

AerostarMonk · 04-27-2007, 12:21 PM

I don't think Nicholson even topped Romero. I actually think he's the worst incarnation of the Joker that has graced the screen. He was a good villain for the context of the film, but he just didn't really hack it my eyes. He was far surpassed by Keaton and Gough who fulfilled their roles beautifully and have become the true icons of the series. Besides I believe the best villain of the Burton set was Walken's Max Shreck. Except for Selina Kyle, every other villain suffered from Burton Knows Best syndrome. Something followers of Superman know all about. Jon Peters wasn't alone in his dismantling of that franchise in the late 90s.

I still hold Ron Perlman's Matt Hagen to being the superior Clayface. The writing, the atmosphere, the music just worked a lot better. Everything went right with him. I mean, just so right. Not saying that everything wasn't right for the new Clayface, it's just that B:TAS stands taller in my opinion.

It's not so much being anal sometimes as it seems that they change some things for seemingly no reason. Not having Wolverine in yellow spandex is one thing, but completely defanging Dark Phoenix into nothing more than Magneto's pawn is another. Sometimes changes can be fantastic and actually add depth and nuance to something that would just seemed uneven if rushed if translated directly, see X2 for example. But other times it's just, why did they do that?

It's all about the spirit. If you betray the spirit of the source to win over the wider audience the movie will always fail. No matter what. And right now if comic book movies try to hard to maintain realism they're going to betray the spirit, because realism isn't what comics are about. Well, at least not superhero comics.

Besides it's already a consensus even among the audiences that trying to reach out to them has ruined plenty of films with amazing potential.

Mr. Marshmallow · 04-27-2007, 01:26 PM

Realism is always apart of comics and comic movies, that;s the whole reason they bother explaining the genetics of it by telling us about the mollecular scramblers and radioactive spiders and everything. It's like I said, everything needs a ground point but that's another issue all together.

Romero's Joker was probably my least favorite out of the 4, and being an adverse Burton fan, I have never been disappointed with his work or his decision on where to lead the characters given to him, be it Batman or Joker or anyone. And I think if people generally accept his Penguin image (which it seems quite a few do), then what's the problem?

The Dark Phoneix story wasn't totally made into a Magento sidekick story, because as we plainly saw, Magento was NEVER in control. Magneto was simply under the assumption he was using her. The second X-men movie to me is one of the few films I have seen that i would dare I say, perfect. A word I save for very, VERY few movies.

I also feel that of all the comic book movies I have seen, not many have betrayed the spirit of the comic and I certainly would say X-men and Batman are the last films I would ever say betrayed anything. Except for Batman and Robin.

AerostarMonk · 04-27-2007, 01:49 PM

You've obviously never heard anything about the Superman debacle. Even Nicolas Cage was mad at him. He has no respect for comics, in fact he even said that he set out to make the comics follow his lead instead of the other way around. He's a good filmmaker sure, but I'd rather see another Ratner film produced by Rothman than let Burton anywhere near another comic property. Because Burton doesn't always no best. Sure he made his Penguin a lot more appealing to a lot of people. But if the character isn't appealing without making him a disgusting monster, why even use him? There were plenty of villians that fit without so huge of a makeover. No disrespect to Danny DeVito's marvelous performance. Sure some villains actually need a huge change, like Freeze, or Mad Hatter among others before they got to their current incarnations. Others were pretty much fine how they were. Look at Selina Kyle. She was able to keep her basic story of the woman who fights back with the Burton twist. Why not others?

There's a huge difference between realism and just plain explanation. I mean of course Peter Parker is going to be bitten by a radioactive spider as opposed to getting bashed over the head with a coconut and gaining spider powers. What I'm talking about is when they strip away a lot of what makes a character cool and appealing just to make that character more realistic. Those moments you regard as realism only serve as as a gateway to escapism.

That balance between the right amount of comic fantasy and movie realism is a hard one, but good examples are the first Turtles, the first two X-Men, Mystery Men, and the Superman films. Those are all of varying quality I know, but they struck the balance well.

Will the next Turtles movie achieve this balance? Only time will tell.

Mr. Marshmallow · 04-27-2007, 04:20 PM

I never had a problem with Singer's films and I still don't. Superman Returns was not a bad film in my opinion, not the greatest return to the franchise of the Man of steel but there is infinitely worse movies out there then Superman Returns. Burton's designs are not saying that the characters are not appealing prior to a make over.

But it's a different person's view on the subject. The whole Willy Wonka movies are a fine example. The original was actually WAY off from the book and Rold Dhal hated it, but Burton's remake was actually closer to the material. Every director will put his or her own spin on a movie be it a novel or comic book and I'd rather watch the movie and enjoy it then worry about "what's wrong" with it.

The Ninja turtles movies I feel still has the chance to become a solid franchise again. Now I must admit as much as I enjoyed TMNT, it wasn't a solid "restarter" like Casion Royale was for Bond or Batman Begins was for Batman. I think if they come back for a sequel, they should do more known villains, regardless if Shredder is back or not.

I want to see some of the other bad guys in the Turtles verse, especially Krang. I think if they use a variety of mutant villains like they did in TMNT but spaced it a bit more and allowed more characters to become in depth, we could really see some quality villains make a quality movie transition.

AerostarMonk · 04-27-2007, 05:04 PM

I just have a hard time swallowing the comic book world of a guy who hates comics. Not just hates, he had and still has no respect for them. I'm just not a real fan of where Burton took the characters. I ate it up when I was younger, but as I got older they just weren't the same anymore.

The reason TMNT really wasn't a solid restarter is because it wasn't a full-on reboot. In fact it wasn't a reboot. There are other key factors that I believe stopped it from making the money it should've made. The clarification of its continuity, its release date, and the burn out on CGI films.

On the last part I agree. Though I'm not as hungry to see Krang as you are.

Mr. Marshmallow · 04-27-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AerostarMonk

I just have a hard time swallowing the comic book world of a guy who hates comics. Not just hates, he had and still has no respect for them.

Even if he said that himself, in my honest opinion I'd have to say it doesn't show in his work. Funny thing is though is that Heath Ledger said the same thing.

He hates comic books himself, yet he's playing one of the BIGGEST comic baddies of all time.

AerostarMonk · 04-27-2007, 05:31 PM

Finding out more it really showed to me. Especially in the Superman debacle. Superman without the suit? I'm sorry that's just a really strong guy.

The jury's still out on whether Heath Ledger will be a good Joker. I have faith in Nolan's decision, but the guys in the running were just great.

Nyo · 07-03-2007, 08:19 PM

I have one word for this thread:

I'm not a big fan of the series, but I much perfer the 80's version over '03.

Mr. Marshmallow · 07-03-2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyo

I'm not a big fan of the series, but I much perfer the 80's version over '03.

I think we ALL do or if not all, majority. The new show to me is kind of crap. The only thing I liked what they did with the show was Shredder's new look and the semi-interesting future show "Fast Forward".

Which I only really watch for the Cody/Starlee issue but that's a whole nother story all together. Btw, sweet picture there Nyo

looks like it's from the Turtles in Time video game, an AWESOME game.

Since this topic was brought up I might as well mention this, supposedly TMNT did very well far as the box office goes. It's international success earned it some pretty big brownie points for WB and the director says there's 70% of a sequel happening.

No word on what it's going to be about other then the suggested ideas the director mentioned. But word of mouth is (both fan wise and official wise) say that the Shredder is going to return.

emperor26 · 07-03-2007, 10:23 PM

To be honest, I don't like the 80's version of the TMNT at all.

In my view, it's quite cheesy, Shredder is not a serious threat, the storylines doesn't make any sense, and the turtles themselves are more comedic than what they were originally portrayed in the comics.

Sorry to those who likes the 80's version, but that's how I feel about it.

04-27-2007, 01:26 PM	#72
Mr. Marshmallow Not-So-Hopeless Romantic Gotta love being in love Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Orland Park, IL Posts: 1,924	Realism is always apart of comics and comic movies, that;s the whole reason they bother explaining the genetics of it by telling us about the mollecular scramblers and radioactive spiders and everything. It's like I said, everything needs a ground point but that's another issue all together. Romero's Joker was probably my least favorite out of the 4, and being an adverse Burton fan, I have never been disappointed with his work or his decision on where to lead the characters given to him, be it Batman or Joker or anyone. And I think if people generally accept his Penguin image (which it seems quite a few do), then what's the problem? The Dark Phoneix story wasn't totally made into a Magento sidekick story, because as we plainly saw, Magento was NEVER in control. Magneto was simply under the assumption he was using her. The second X-men movie to me is one of the few films I have seen that i would dare I say, perfect. A word I save for very, VERY few movies. I also feel that of all the comic book movies I have seen, not many have betrayed the spirit of the comic and I certainly would say X-men and Batman are the last films I would ever say betrayed anything. Except for Batman and Robin. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/BionicSlime http://www.fanfiction.net/~nukem999 Last edited by Mr. Marshmallow; 04-27-2007 at 01:30 PM.

04-27-2007, 04:20 PM	#74
Mr. Marshmallow Not-So-Hopeless Romantic Gotta love being in love Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Orland Park, IL Posts: 1,924	I never had a problem with Singer's films and I still don't. Superman Returns was not a bad film in my opinion, not the greatest return to the franchise of the Man of steel but there is infinitely worse movies out there then Superman Returns. Burton's designs are not saying that the characters are not appealing prior to a make over. But it's a different person's view on the subject. The whole Willy Wonka movies are a fine example. The original was actually WAY off from the book and Rold Dhal hated it, but Burton's remake was actually closer to the material. Every director will put his or her own spin on a movie be it a novel or comic book and I'd rather watch the movie and enjoy it then worry about "what's wrong" with it. The Ninja turtles movies I feel still has the chance to become a solid franchise again. Now I must admit as much as I enjoyed TMNT, it wasn't a solid "restarter" like Casion Royale was for Bond or Batman Begins was for Batman. I think if they come back for a sequel, they should do more known villains, regardless if Shredder is back or not. I want to see some of the other bad guys in the Turtles verse, especially Krang. I think if they use a variety of mutant villains like they did in TMNT but spaced it a bit more and allowed more characters to become in depth, we could really see some quality villains make a quality movie transition. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/BionicSlime http://www.fanfiction.net/~nukem999

07-03-2007, 08:19 PM	#78
Nyo Little Miss Awesome Sauce bang! Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Lala Land, Sexyworld Posts: 697	I have one word for this thread: I'm not a big fan of the series, but I much perfer the 80's version over '03. __________________ Last edited by Nyo; 07-03-2007 at 08:20 PM.

07-03-2007, 10:23 PM	#80
emperor26 Foster's Legend Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: California Posts: 725	To be honest, I don't like the 80's version of the TMNT at all. In my view, it's quite cheesy, Shredder is not a serious threat, the storylines doesn't make any sense, and the turtles themselves are more comedic than what they were originally portrayed in the comics. Sorry to those who likes the 80's version, but that's how I feel about it. __________________ See ya!

04-27-2007, 12:21 PM	#71
AerostarMonk Holy Toledo! Just try to relax and I'll try not to steal from you. Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toledo, Ohio. Posts: 462	I don't think Nicholson even topped Romero. I actually think he's the worst incarnation of the Joker that has graced the screen. He was a good villain for the context of the film, but he just didn't really hack it my eyes. He was far surpassed by Keaton and Gough who fulfilled their roles beautifully and have become the true icons of the series. Besides I believe the best villain of the Burton set was Walken's Max Shreck. Except for Selina Kyle, every other villain suffered from Burton Knows Best syndrome. Something followers of Superman know all about. Jon Peters wasn't alone in his dismantling of that franchise in the late 90s. I still hold Ron Perlman's Matt Hagen to being the superior Clayface. The writing, the atmosphere, the music just worked a lot better. Everything went right with him. I mean, just so right. Not saying that everything wasn't right for the new Clayface, it's just that B:TAS stands taller in my opinion. It's not so much being anal sometimes as it seems that they change some things for seemingly no reason. Not having Wolverine in yellow spandex is one thing, but completely defanging Dark Phoenix into nothing more than Magneto's pawn is another. Sometimes changes can be fantastic and actually add depth and nuance to something that would just seemed uneven if rushed if translated directly, see X2 for example. But other times it's just, why did they do that? It's all about the spirit. If you betray the spirit of the source to win over the wider audience the movie will always fail. No matter what. And right now if comic book movies try to hard to maintain realism they're going to betray the spirit, because realism isn't what comics are about. Well, at least not superhero comics. Besides it's already a consensus even among the audiences that trying to reach out to them has ruined plenty of films with amazing potential.

04-27-2007, 01:49 PM	#73
AerostarMonk Holy Toledo! Just try to relax and I'll try not to steal from you. Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toledo, Ohio. Posts: 462	You've obviously never heard anything about the Superman debacle. Even Nicolas Cage was mad at him. He has no respect for comics, in fact he even said that he set out to make the comics follow his lead instead of the other way around. He's a good filmmaker sure, but I'd rather see another Ratner film produced by Rothman than let Burton anywhere near another comic property. Because Burton doesn't always no best. Sure he made his Penguin a lot more appealing to a lot of people. But if the character isn't appealing without making him a disgusting monster, why even use him? There were plenty of villians that fit without so huge of a makeover. No disrespect to Danny DeVito's marvelous performance. Sure some villains actually need a huge change, like Freeze, or Mad Hatter among others before they got to their current incarnations. Others were pretty much fine how they were. Look at Selina Kyle. She was able to keep her basic story of the woman who fights back with the Burton twist. Why not others? There's a huge difference between realism and just plain explanation. I mean of course Peter Parker is going to be bitten by a radioactive spider as opposed to getting bashed over the head with a coconut and gaining spider powers. What I'm talking about is when they strip away a lot of what makes a character cool and appealing just to make that character more realistic. Those moments you regard as realism only serve as as a gateway to escapism. That balance between the right amount of comic fantasy and movie realism is a hard one, but good examples are the first Turtles, the first two X-Men, Mystery Men, and the Superman films. Those are all of varying quality I know, but they struck the balance well. Will the next Turtles movie achieve this balance? Only time will tell.

04-27-2007, 05:04 PM	#75
AerostarMonk Holy Toledo! Just try to relax and I'll try not to steal from you. Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toledo, Ohio. Posts: 462	I just have a hard time swallowing the comic book world of a guy who hates comics. Not just hates, he had and still has no respect for them. I'm just not a real fan of where Burton took the characters. I ate it up when I was younger, but as I got older they just weren't the same anymore. The reason TMNT really wasn't a solid restarter is because it wasn't a full-on reboot. In fact it wasn't a reboot. There are other key factors that I believe stopped it from making the money it should've made. The clarification of its continuity, its release date, and the burn out on CGI films. On the last part I agree. Though I'm not as hungry to see Krang as you are.

04-27-2007, 05:31 PM	#77
AerostarMonk Holy Toledo! Just try to relax and I'll try not to steal from you. Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toledo, Ohio. Posts: 462	Finding out more it really showed to me. Especially in the Superman debacle. Superman without the suit? I'm sorry that's just a really strong guy. The jury's still out on whether Heath Ledger will be a good Joker. I have faith in Nolan's decision, but the guys in the running were just great.