Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

[Mr. Marshmallow]

I personally just felt it was an insult to the Shredder to change him into an alien. The whole idea behind Shredder was that he was a murderous, cold blooded human killer in a slicer suit. His whole hatred of Splinter and his master was a very human thing. Plus, he did come back as a clone and even at one point with Raphael dressing up as Shredder and acting like him for a while.

And to me, seeing him as basically a Men in Black alien style suit was upsetting. Plus the fact he has a human daughter brings up several questions about some probably disturbing results. Anywho, I think Shredder has a very commanding prescence and that it'd be a shame not to see him again.

Most people don't know this movie picked up the original 3 and the Shredder is the turtles HEAD nemesis. He's just as big as Joker is to Batman or Agent Smith to Neo. But I do think they should bring in some more villains. I personally would like to see some of the OTHER mutants like Slash, Wingnut, or Baxter Stockmen.

And by Baxter I mean the FLY Baxter, the one I grew up with on the cartoon. I realize Baxter is really a evil black scientist but I loved the idea of him being turned into a mutant whining fly freak. Plus even though he's not an Utrom, it'd be a real nice treat to see an updated Krang on the big screen.

[AerostarMonk]

I'd rather not have fly Baxter back. After being exposed to the original Stockman, I'd much prefer him.

As for the Shredder, there's still so many other things that can be done. A Battle Nexus movie would be amazing beyond belief. But unfortunately that's way too outside for the mainstream. I still want to see someone like Usagi pop up in the film, fat chance though. I mean they could even expand the time scepter's abililites to being able to transport them to other universes or something.

The changing of Shredder from human to alien was no more insulting than making Hamato Yoshi and Splinter one and the same. Or taking away Baxter's menace, as they did in the 87 series. Don't get me wrong, I grew up with and loved the 87 series same as you. I just feel that the movies, barring the 3rd, the 03 series, and the original comics are a cut above. And I really hope they stick with the fact that the continuity is carried over from the original films.

One thing though, April lost years off her age and also gained a degree in Latin American anthropology? That's the one plot hole I can't get over.

[emperor26]

To be honest with you, Mr. Marshmallow, I actually have to agree with AeroStarMonk.

YES, I also have watch the 1987 version of TMNT, including the movies, but I wasn't hooked up on the series itself.

But after watching the 2003 version, I actually enjoyed this one for many reasons: it follows more closely to the comic book, the show actually killed off some characters (even if they were off-screen), and some episodes were actually controversial (especially "Insane in the Membrane", which is now available on DVD and "Nightmare Recycled", which was never completed, due to the subject of conjoin twins).

As for the Shredder, I was shocked that he became an alien, but other than that, I didn't have any problem with it. However, the original Shredder does indeed show up. However, he only appears in the lost season, which can be viewed on youtube.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Baxter's true nature just won't fly with kids though, pardon the pun. The Shredder was even toned down for the films considering I've been told he was down right ruthless in the comics. It all depends on which mainstream they intend on basing it off of.

Baxter's fly form has certainly become his iconic image though. Every turtles game that involves him has him in the fly form. I was never a fan of them making Splinter and Yoshi the same in the first place, but considering Shredder was always depicted as the hated rival of Yoshi or Splinter in any version.

It's kind of disappointing to see him become just an alien. The Shredder always impressed me because he WAS a human. A normal human being who is able to instill such fear and control creatures just as equally dangerous and powerful as the ones he tried to kill, now that is quite impressive.

Being true to the comics though isn't always what its cracked up to be. Because if you follow that same system, April isn't even a real human. I heard the comics said she was just some drawing that crystals brought to life. Nothing ever translates 100% from comic to movie perfectly, and to be honest, I don't want it to either.

There are some things that just work better as comics and some things that should stay there. Change also can be good if handled properly, consider Tim Burton's versions of the Penguin and the Joker, both had large differences from their comic book forms but were absolutely amazing on film.

I know the 87 series was kiddie friendly, I don't doubt that, but it brought in so many characters that the 2003 series I doubt would ever consider using. Plus the fact Shredder is an Utrom kills the whole comic book authenticity right there. I guess to me the alien revelation took away the "reality" in Shredder, aside from April, he's always been the biggest human factor.

Now in regards to April I don't think she lost years I think any animated version of her would look young, no matter how much they tinkered around with it. My guess is that her reporting job failed. She was always getting yelled or getting in trouble as a reporter in all of the movies, and judging by her appearance and general attitude in the 3rd movie, I think she might already been thinking of a new job or possibly just getting out of her old one.

Plus, I think she learned anthropology (or took a basic course) just to help her get a heads up on finding Leo. I also think her current job works for her because she's able to have Casey Jones at her side. It's important for them as a couple, and considering Jones has never had a REAL life to live off of.

Now mock them all you want, but I think that if there are ANY TMNT characters that deserve screen time it's Bebop and Rocksteady. I loved Tokka and Rahzar but I feel Rocksteady and Bebop deserve their place on the big screen, they are classic characters and nothing in this world can ever erase my memory of their use in the cartoon show.

The show may have been kiddish and they may have been as smart as sock puppets, but I feel there as big a part of the turtles universe as anyone else.

[AerostarMonk]

I really wouldn't say that fly Baxter is iconic because he's in all the video games. I really think people in the mainstream could digest the mad scientist with knowledge of robotics a lot more easily than the fly premise.

I must say I'm just as impressed with this Shredder. He still instills fear to me. The thought that somehow, even in a race of peaceful aliens, an evil so hatful could be bred is frightening. Not only that he takes the mantle of something that inspires fear in humans as well. I gagged at first at the whole alien thing, but it really started to grow on me after awhile. The Shredder always had an air of the supernatural about him, this being that seemed unstoppable, and then to find out that stripped of his armor he's even more vulnerable than your average being is chilling. Over a period of a thousand years what was little more than a lump of walking grey matter had evolved into what probably was the most powerful being on the planet, and what's more, few people even knew. That whole dual nature thing was appealing to me. It's only his reputation that was indestructible, the being itself was quite vulnerable, something that has been inherent in the character in all interpretations. So I think the authenticity is still there.

As for characters that changed in other comic movies. I liked Burton's Batmans, but Jack Nicholson's Joker is just dull compared to the comics and of course Mark Hamill. I mean so dull. I couldn't feel the menace or the insanity. He could've been a guy wearing makeup who liked to rob banks, but the Joker he wasn't. As for the Penguin, he was a lot of fun, but I always got the vibe that he was weird just for the sake of being weird. And he probably was being that Tim Burton admitted he'd rather die than ever read a comic book. But that's all I'm going to say on that matter.

I really don't see a need for Bebop and Rocksteady. I mean why not just bring everyone back from the 87 series while we're at it. It seems like they're taking dash of the old Laird/Eastman series, a heaping helping of the films, a pinch of 87 series, a sprinkling of the 03, and maybe a spoonful of the Archie run to make this series. I don't want to see it get too bogged down trying to interpret one iteration of the characters. Though like I said, I'd still like to see them follow their continuity and leave Shredder out, at least until a third movie.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Hamill's Joker to me brought the evil laugh in, he never came anywhere near the amount of murderous insanity Nicholson gave him. Aside from Batman Beyond's movie version of Joker and that to me took way too long to bring in. Bebop and Rocksteady are not a sign of everything 80s coming back.

They are in fact SUPPOSED to have been here already. They were the original mutants chosen to be where Tokka and Rahzar were, but because their creator didn't want them to mess with his designs they invented Tokka and Rahzar. They got cheated out of it and I feel they deserve it, 80s series or no 80s series.

Besides, the whole indestructible thing really loses points for me simply because we know all along that it was pretty indestructible, it was a machine. A walking, talking toy costume that was operated ala Men in Black style. A human to be is always more vulnerable then an alien, even a small alien like the Utroms.

The whole indestructible theory though really doesn't sound like anything unique to villains though, I never was aware this kind of title surrounded Shredder but considering villains always have a way of coming back from the dead (one way or another), it doesn't sound like much to me personally.

[AerostarMonk]

It wasn't really the man, it was the rep behind the man. No matter what he could be destroyed but the Shredder would always live on. Not even Utrom Saki was the original Shredder. Sort of a who's Keyser Soze thing.

Bebop and Rocksteady weren't in the original comic they actually were created for the show. It's just that the concepts they were based on were way toned down. I mean I wouldn't mind them showing up, but they really have no reason to. They aren't major villains themselves and without Shredder to anchor them to they just don't fit.

I never really got that murderous insanity from Nicholson. I mean he just seemed like your average killer. His version of Torrance in the Shining was closer to the Joker for me than the actual Joker in Burton's film. His defanging of such a great villain was inexcusable especially without the censors that hampered Hamill's Joker. But the Joker is not just about his murderous insanity. It's about his sick twisted sense of humor which was only displayed a couple of times in the film, but numerous times in the animated series. The setup and punchlines were set up beautifully in the series. Especially in Joker's Favor.

BTW, thanks Mr. M. It's great to have someone here I can just geek out with.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

No prob, but Joker to me is more then just a sense of humor, he was crazy in that movie and he was what I was hoping he would be: the life of the movie. Joker may not have stepped time out of the film to do long, over extended psychological or physical torture scenes but he still proved his madness.

Consider how carelessly Joker slaughtered Gotham's organized crime members, or how he managed to poison thousands into grinning corpses, and by far his most sickening act, the gas balloons filled to kill nearly every citizen of Gotham. To me, this Joker had more life and more "moodyness" that I always expected.

Hamill's Joker was more like the comics but I did find him at times to seem a bit too "proper" and not nearly as black hearted until the series came closer to the finish line. But back to turtles, Bebop and Rocksteady don't necessarily need Shredder to be apart of the films, they can be included with anyone.

With a new bad guy, or a new head mutant villain or whatever. The reason I'd like to see them is because they represent what Shredder really wanted from the ooze, "freak vs. freak". Tokka and Rahzar however were infants and didn't really get the way Shredder wanted it. No mutant has since showed up.

I just would like to see some mutant villain show up no matter who he works with, and comic or not, I thinking using a semi-famous one wouldn't be that out of line considering it's an easier way to get people involved. There's also Leatherhead, Slash, Dirtbag, Groundchuck, Scumbug, or even Antrax.

Whether they were in the cartoon series or not, Turtles has alot of mutants at their disposal to use.

[AerostarMonk]

I love Leatherhead, I hope he's the one to show up. Maybe they could come up with some new characters too. Winters and the Generals were great additions and something I could actually see being in one of the previous iterations. I mean it just fit so well with the usual TMNT stuff. If Kevin Munroe can come up with more stuff like this, more power to him.

I really feel that Burton didn't understand the Joker. Otherwise he'd be some no name guy and he wouldn't have been a substitue for Joe Chill. Part of the beauty of the Joker is that he has no set origin story other than the vat of chemicals. Even the comics never gave him a true identity. Being homicidal is not just killing people en masse. That's not what Joker is about to me. It's that mix of the homicidal with the humor and the fact that he would sacrifice both to mess with Batman. And I just didn't get that impression at all from Nicholson's Joker. In fact there's only been two onscreen Jokers who've fit and that's Hamill's and Richardson's.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

The Joker in all 3 forms (movies, original series, and new one) were represneted differently. Nicholson did bring out the coldest aspects of the Joker, even with all the censoring, Joker never targeted so many people and used death so frequently as he did in the movies.

The toons mostly used him doing crimes to either get Batman's attention or make a scene. Interesting to note is that Jack Napier was pretty tame as a hit man and it was only after he became the Joker he truly lost it. Burton's Joker is the same Joker but with a livelier spark, he was more jumpy then the others.

I would have liked the Turtles to make more use of the 13 monsters, it was a shame they only got to battle Bigfoot and the Jersey devil and not the other 11.