Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
 

With the release of the fourth TMNT movie, I thought this would a great time to talk about TMNT in general.

Yes, I have seen the 1980's version of the show (I was young back then), but looking back at it, I find the show to be a bit boring.

So yeah, I prefer the 2003 version of TMNT over the 80's version.

As far as the turtles goes, I really like Leonardo and Rafael, and for favorite villains, it would have to be the Shredder or Agent Bishop.

So, feel free to post up your thoughts on TMNT.

I grew up on the 80s cartoon so I love that. Looking back on it now, I know it was dorky as heck. But it was awesome in it's own way.

The first movie was my favorite. Nothing will ever compare to the awesomness of that film. The second one was good too, but nowhere near as great as the first. The third was mostly a disappointment and the only thing I liked about it was Casey Jones.

The new 2003 show... I was reluctant to watch it, but I figured I should if I was going to form an opinion of it. Plus I was finding a lot of TMNT fanfiction that were based on the new show and I wanted to understand the fanfiction. So I watched almost the whole thing (I'm on season 5). And I love it. My fav episode would be The Same as it Never Was. That was cool.

The new movie... anyone who has seen my posts can tell I'm a fan of the movie. Despite the plotholes and freaky CG people, I love that movie. Raph is my favorite turtle and I love how he was in the movie so much.
Worldwide TMNT has earned $31,504,341. It has almost earned back its $34 million production budget. It's nowhere near as close as the $135,265,915 gross that the first movie earned, but it's better than a lot of other CG movies that have been released.

Turtles rock :O I have the first season of the 1980's series on DVD (it's only like... 6 episodes XD)

I want to see the new movie but I can't find anyone to go see it with :(

Go alone; why miss a good movie for lack of company? I saw all three of the Lord Of The Rings movies by myself, and I've never regretted it. :)

Cowabunga! I'm a huge fan of TMNT. I was big on the 1980-90s cartoon series. I'm way behind on the 2003-present animated series, though. :P

I was a HUGE fan of the 80's series. I don't have any of the fanart I did of it anymore though. That was before I started keeping sketchbooks. Um, Rocksteady was my favorite character. I'm so predictable. :terrsmile:

When we went to go visit my mom's family in New York the summer I was 12 (the biggest year of my TMNT fandom), my wee little cousin was totally in love with TMNT so I became his best friend. We played Turtles for like, 2 weeks solid. I was Donatello. In fact when he left he said "I love you, Donatello" to me because he didn't even know my real name. :bloosmirk:

I gave the movies a miss despite my fandom because I just...preferred them animated. And I have never even seen the 2003 series. I still don't know if I'm going to bother with the new movie. I'll likely just wait until it comes to TV, to be honest.

Hells yeah I LOVE the turtles. I've been out of whack with them ever since the crap ass new animated series came on, I really think it's a load of crap if you ask me, they absolutely BUTCHERED Shredder. But I've definitely loved it from the old school cartoon series, that's easily one of the best oldie cartoons.

All of the movies (sans the 3rd) are incredible. And don't believe any bad feedback, trust me, any Turtles fan of ANY era, day, or age will enjoy the new movie. I totally loved the Turtles in time super NES video game, I could play that for hours on end and it still feels fresh and fun.

I sadly have a REAL hard time picking favorite characters because I have way too many. My number one would have to be Shredder, one of the greatest comic book villains ever in my opinion. Other favs include Donatello, Slash, Baxter Stockmen, Tokka and Rahzar (I LUV THOSE 2 :D), and Wingut.

And even though everyone pretty much bashed the hell out of this show, I still enjoyed Ninja Turtles: Next Mutation live action show. Mainly due to the fact it has my other favorite character, another villain portrayed for the first time EVER on screen in person by Scott McNeil, Simon Bonesteel.

I'm one of the blasphemous few who prefers the 03 series. I don't know what it is. It just works better for me. I find the stories more engaging, the animation more fluid and detailed, the characters more interesting, and the voice work to be top-notch. Well, the voice work on the 80s series was just as good, I'll say that. But I really love the new series.
Except for the Fast Forward stuff, what is up with that. My God, it's just horrible. Total wonknerded the entire flow of the 03 series, and is the biggest disgrace to the Turtles since the introduction of Venus De Milo.

I don't really consider Venus a disgrace, the concept of her being a female turtles is a disgrace. Considering the creators never wanted one but I liked Venus in the series. I liked how they portrayed her personality and it made her play off the other turtles well.

Plus, another reason I don't mind Venus is because this isn't the first time the TMNT shows have made a reptilian girlfriend for the turtles. In the 80s series cartoon, Raphael got his own love interest in Mona Lisa. A tadpole, frog looking female that aside from the species, is alot like how Venus is.

So, a female reptile to give the turtles a few googly eyes is certainly nothing new.

All I know is that I'm really missing the missing season of the 03 Turtles. The one they made at the same time as Fast Forward. I still don't know what they were thinking with that one. However it wouldn't be the first apocryphal thing in Turtles canon if they plan on ditching the storyline.
I don't remember which but there's a whole arc in the comics that were canon until just a few years ago.

I just started watching the missing season for the 03 show. It's pretty good so far. I haven't yet watched fast forward. Is it really bad? If it is I might not waste my time with it.

The Next Mutation: I wasn't really a fan of that, but I think part of the reason why was because I was still miffed about the third movie. I didn't want a live action series, I wanted another movie, a BETTER movie.

Oh By the way, If anyone happens to find a better image that I could use as a sig I would be really grateful if they would direct me towards it. I'm getting kind of tired of this one.

OMG. I'm so glad to find this thread.

I can't be positive for a favorite character - I'm stuck between Donatello (Cuz he's smart) and Michelangelo (Cuz he's funny)...XDD

My favorite movie was always the second one, as it is the first one I ever watched.

And I never saw he 80's version of the series, as I was not born at the time. XD

I never really got the '03 series. XD

And who could forget my favorite quote? XDD

"-I found four baby turtles."
"That was us! Heh-heh-heh!"
"Ah man..."

XDDD

Meeeemoriiiieesss...light the corners of my miiiiiind...
 

Ah, Turtles - what would my childhood have been without them? :bloocross:

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (or Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles as they were clumsily re-dubbed in the UK, for fear that the nation's kids might start assasinating people at dead of night, presumably ::) ) were the second major obsession of my life, after my preschool Thomas The Tank Engine phase. There were a couple of years when I was about seven or eight where it was just my life; I bought the toys, the weapons, watched the show religiously, spent fortunes on the arcade game, even read up on the original comics...man, if I were to go into the full extent of my Turtle-mania I would fill several pages. :D Dragging my mum and uncle out to a supermarket in Malaysia (we were in the country at the time anyway, just to clarify :P ) and queuing for hours to meet Michaelangelo and Donatello was a highpoint; everything Turtles back then was just so thrilling to me. Watching them actually "come alive" for the first time in the 1990 movie remains one of the most profoundly amazing spectacles of my cinematic experience, silly as that sounds. :bloogrin:

Funny thing is, despite the depth of the obsession I had with them back then, it's something I really left behind as I grew up; the winding down of the public craze might have contributed to the weaning process, as might the awful third movie - even when I was nine I could tell what a rancid pile that was. :frankiemad: Still, even I was surprised by what a clean break I made from it, to the extent that the Next Mutation Series passed me by totally (not that it sounds like I missed out), whilst the 2003 series only really got a flicker of recognition for me. It's interesting to revisit the old stuff, too; whilst I still have a lot of affection for the old cartoon series, it now feels quite tangibly coated in 80's cheese, though I do have fun spotting voice talent in it now (trivia for today; Leonardo was played by Cam Clarke, aka Liquid Snake from Metal Gear, and Shredder was played by James Avery, aka Uncle Phil from The Fresh Prince of Bel Air :D). The first movie holds up quite well, though; the animatronics are still impressive, and tonally it's a good representation of the grittier Eastman/Laird comic.

Still, perhaps that's not the last chapter for me and the Turtles. I've got to admit that the trailers for the new TMNT movie actually got me surprisingly excited, and though the movie itself was patchy (see the movie topic for detail on that), it's succeeded in getting them back on my mind. Maybe I'll check out some of the 2003 series if I can...:)

I actually have been watching the Fast Forward series on comcast demand recently. To be blunt, I actually watched it just because I was interested in a minor character on the show. A cute alien girl named Starlee caught my interest and as shallow as it sounds, I keep looking for episodes involving her :-[.

The show isn't anything amazing but it's certainly not as boring or stupid as I thought it had been. The neatest thing I think they have in the show is having Casey Jones/April O'Neil's grandchild which is COOL to me because after seeing TMNT, I'm totally into their romance and glad it's evident here.

"Next Mutation" suffered alot of faults, third movie or not. It had completely stupid catch phrases that were mindlessly repeated to the point you wanna rip your ears off, and it was loaded with weird cartoon sound effects every time a fight broke out. On the other hand, it did have some benefits.

Venus like I said before was a very different kind of character, Splinter actually looked BETTER then he did in the third movie, and the most unique thing I found were some of the new villains. Guys like the Dragon Lord, Dr. Quease, and Simon Bonesteel were very interesting and they looked great.

Bonesteel as I also said is my personal favorite, played by Scott McNeil. A very famous voice actor who never took on a LIVE role until this one. Bonesteel was a homeless animal hunter who was not only insane and loaded with weapons, but he also named his weapons by female names.

Like Alice, Mary Lou, and Margery. He was a total riot :D.

You pretty much named the only two reason I watch Fast Forward, Mr. M. Besides what you said about Starlee isn't shallow. I myself find the 03 April O'Neil to be cuter than the 87 series. That and 03 April doesn't seem to have Lois Lane Syndrome.
Speaking of Ms. O'Neil I'm still a little weirded out by the choice in the comics to make her a pencil sketch brought to life by a magic crystal. It just seems to work against her being the normal aspect to a very skewed world.

:wiltshock:

I honestly NEVER knew that about April, that is a major downer. Why would the closest human friend of the turtles be some drawing brought to life by a magical crystal? It sounds REALLY stupid actually.

Casey Jones was sadly vacant from the 80s series, or if he was in it I don't remember him. I didn't catch much of the 03 series but I'm at least glad she's as attractive as I've seen, and that her and Jones hooked up.

Casey Jones was in the 80's series apparently. I don't actually remember him but this is the info I found on that: In the original TMNT cartoon, Casey Jones is a crazed vigilante who fights crime as horrific as murder, to as petty as littering. He never takes off his mask in the series. This Casey does not play as important a role as his comic book counterpart. His most notable line was ?When do I get to break something?? Voiced by Pat Fraley.

I should be seeing the movie some time this week. I just got my tax return. I can't wait. You've guys have sold me on it more than any other site. Though I already was sold on it. Now I'm quadruple sold on it.

My work here is done, heh 8-).

Let me start off by saying...OH, HECK YES!! FINALLY a thread about everyone's favorite heroes in a half-shell! XD Ahem, as you can tell, I, too, grew up with the Ninja Turtles, so of course I am a huge fan of them! Although I haven't seen it in about forever I still remember the old series from the '80s and how I could never miss an episode when I was still a child. Ahh, good times, good times. ;) Although I liked all of the turtles, I must admit that Michelangelo and Donatello always held special places in my heart and they will more than likely always be my favorite ones out of the four (it's a shame that the new movie supposedly didn't focus on them as much as Leo and Raph).

I remember playing the Turtles NES games as a child as well...man, that was some of the most fun that I ever had! XD

I've watched a bit of the '03 series. While it's not exactly my favorite, I still find it to be better than most of the brain-washing, no-depth cartoons that are out today. As for Fast Forward I have seen maybe one or two episodes from that and, well, it's...umm...different, to say the least! XP I have also seen all of the movies that came out in the early to mid '90's (even if it's been awhile since I've seen them last) and I have to say that I honestly liked all of them, the infamous third one included! Man, this thread brings back so many memories! :P

I'm glad to see this thread. I love the turtles and I love the first two movies to bits!:bloogrin: I grew up on the 80's toon and I still love the games, especially Turtle in Time on the SNES.
I didan't care for the Next Mutation show but I did like Venus, or rather, the idea of Venus. I say they should really utalize her in a fresh, realistic way. Maybe have her made for the same reasons that Tokka and Rahzar were. Only Shredder has her pretending to foil his plans to gain the turtles trust so she can find their home and lead the foot to them. Ofcoarse she would have to break away and become a goodguy in the end... or would she?.;)
For those who want to see where the turtle began, you can read the original comic on the Mirage website.:D


http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg01.htm

Actually, it's funny you should mention the "same reasons" Tokka and Rahzar were made. Tokka and Rahzar were actually not supposed to be in the 2nd turtles movie at all. These guys are original creations and were made as a back up, the REAL first choices were in fact Bebop and Rocksteady.

I read around IMDB.com and the web and found out that the actual creator of Bebop and Rocksteady was furious of how his characters were turned into dumb asses in the 80's cartoon series. He felt it was an insult to his characters and said that Rocksteady and Bebop are not actually that stupid.

When the movie was being made the artist said he refused to let them be in the movie if they were still going to be made into morons. So the producers did the next best thing: they still made moronic mutants but changed who it was. And thus, Tokka and Rahzar were born.

I am glad they chose Tokka and Rahzar though. Sure, I'd have loved to see Rocksteady and Bebop on the big screen but I enjoyed the new guys so much, they just had a great design and I thought they were amusing characters to work alongside someone as series as Shredder.

I loved Tokka and Rahzar too! In fact, I think they had much better designs then Bebop and Rocksteady. And I'm sure big mutant Boars and Rhinos would be harder to make costumes of.;) And thanks for the info. I had no idea that Tokka and Rahzar were afterthoughts.:D

Yeah, they were only brought in because Bebop and Rocksteady's creator felt insulted enough knowing his creations were turned into comic relief based morons on the Tv show. Last thing he wants is for millions of people to see them look dumb on the big screen across America.

Essentially though, the characters are kind of reversals for each other. Brain power definitely is a bit higher in Bebop and Rocksteady's area then Tokka and Rahzar, though that's not saying much ;). However, Tokka and Rahzar are twice the size of Bebop/Rocksteady AND all 4 of the ninja turtles.

Plus, there a thousand times stronger then all the turles put together. Another funny fact I found out, Tokka/Rahzar's costumes were the most expensive parts of the entire movie. Also, every video game made AFTER Turtles 2 had Shredder turn into Super Shredder at the end.

But they were just infants, right? They may have had the potential to mature mentally as they got older. If they were given time, they could have become as intellagent as the turtles.

I didn't like having Venus in the Next Mutation series. I honestly don't remember too much about that series, except it had her on it. Also, I didn't like the final seasons of the old TMNT cartoon. It had a much darker feeling than the earlier seasons (though Season 1 was dark, too, though not as much), and I hated the visual changes, too.

Well yes and no. If you watch the movie, you'll see that Dr. Perry (David Warner) reveals that he actually tampered with the ooze he fed to Tokka and Rahzar. While they were babies this is true, the ooze he gave them was designed to purposelly nullify their mental growth.

He knew that if they became smart like the turtles they would be extremely dangerous so he tampered with the ooze so they would remain infant intelligence based. This also explains how Perry reversed the mutation with those cubes they fed Tokka and Rahzar and the use of the fire extinguisher.

Through his tinkering, he changed the ooze's properties to make it easier to reverse their mutation. So if Shredder had done the same "de-mutation" trick on the turtles, it wouldn't work because their ooze wasn't tampered with. Screwing with the ooze was the only way Perry could stall Shredder.

This is also why Perry agreed to perform the mutation, it was the only way he could score a "victory" over complying with Shredder's wishes.

I completly forgot that he messed with the ooz. Thanks for the reminder, Mr.M!:D Anyone remember that episode of the Next Mutation (I rarely ever watched it) where the Turtles kicked the Power Rengers buts?8D

I have that on tape actually. It was a 2 part episode arc that was in a sense, serving as the "series finale" for the Turtles Next Mutation show. It took place during the Power Rangers in Space show and it had the turtles being brainwashed by the current villain of the show, Astronema.

They they then tricked the rangers into being let on board the spaceship and the turtles took control of the ship until they managed to escape. Funny thing was, in the show, both the Rangers and the Turtles didn't believe either one existed.

They thought they were each made up, like comic books and TV shows. It was a funny little joke if you ask me. The Next Mutation show actually did have some interesting plans for a second season. They were going to bring in April and Casey Jones as well as bring back the Shredder.

TMNT has ownly earned about $52,327,000 domestically. I was hoping it would earn more than that. Oh, well. At least they earned more than what they spent to make the movie. 8-)

Duuude...
 

Aye, I noticed that. The $25 million opening weekend was pretty good, all things considered, but for a mid-range kid-oriented animation like TMNT to have legs, it really needed a clear run at the kids market for a little while. In this case, Meet the Robinsons came out the very next week with its hefty Disney marketing clout, so that pretty much hoovered up all of TMNT's business from the second week on. :(

It's a shame, because retrospectively, I really enjoyed TMNT...it was a flawed film, but at its best it really nailed those characters and struck just the right tone. I for one would really like to see that creative team tackle a sequel, because if they kept what worked about the first one (the look, the mood, the action, the group dynamic), and fixed what didn't (the human character designs, the incoherent narrative, the weak villains), then I do think they could produce a more or less perfect Turtles film. Like Pawbah said, the film has made profit, but I just wonder if it made enough for them to regard a sequel as financially worthwhile. Here's hoping.

I only saw the 3rd movie, and boy was it bad. Thank gawsh the Angry Video Game Nerd made a review on it.

I think there will be, the movie got number one at the box office and didn't drop too deeply after it's second week. In regards to the supposed weak spots of the film, I just wanted to say I agree on somewhat half of what you said. For one thing, I actually REALLY enjoyed the use of the human characters here.

The designs didn't bother me at all and I love how Casey and April got so much more involved in this movie then in the past films, their love story was especially interesting and I thought it was such a shame they had to cut so much of it out of the story to keep the movie at a proper running time.

The narrative only showed up at the beginning and end of the movie so that really didn't phase me in the least bit. And finally, I half agree on the villains. I didn't find them weak I just felt they added too many to keep focus on. You had Max Winters, 13 monsters, Karai and the Foot, and the Stone Generals.

That's ALOT to keep track of, had they simply made the movie longer or cut down on the amount of monsters or generals or villains, it would have given the film more ample time to fully develop the characters and give us a chance to see everyone more in depth. I especially was upset over the 13 beasts.

Only 3 got a good chunk of air time, the rest had few second capture scenes and then the rest became the stone generals, and even then only the leader did most of the action and talking. So aside from the too many villains aspect, I loved this movie and I think it's got what it takes to make a fine sequel.

I read around the web the creator of the movie would like to bring in the Rat King, the Shredder, and (more wishful thinking then fact) the Triceratons.

Hmmm...
 

Just looking at the box office numbers again, I think I'd have to disagree with you; the movie dropped down to $9.2 million in the second weekend, which is a pretty steep 61.9% decline, and fell out of the top ten after three weeks. It's now estimated to gross about $55 million, which is closer to the perceived failure of the third Turtles movie ($42m) than either the original ($135m) or its first sequel ($78m)...and that's not even factoring in inflation, or the fact that the new film opened in the largest number of screens and had the highest budget of the four. Again, the film did make a profit, but I do suspect that the studios will have been a little disappointed with the take; or at least, not impressed enough to consider taking the franchise revival further. :(

In terms of my comments on the film itself: let me first say that I'm a big fan of Jeff Matsuda's character design on WB's The Batman TV show, but I felt they lost something in translation to 3D. The likes of Casey Jones and Karai could pass for "stylised", but April in particular just looked sparse to me, without much to distinguish her aside from her large eyes and thin frame, whilst Winters just looked like a blander version of Mr Incredible. :macwor:

Story-wise, I broadly agree with you. I feel the film made the mistake a lot of action/adventure movies do these days, namely trying to cram too many characters and plot strands into too short a running time, and ending up not doing any of them justice. As a result, we got a rushed, compromised central plotline that lacked even internal logic (where have the monsters been for the last 3000 years, and why do they all show up in New York at the exact same time?), backed up by similarly malnourished and ultimately pointless subplots. Don't get me wrong; both the Karai/Foot and April/Casey plot strands had some nice moments, but at least in terms of the scenes that were actually left in the final film, they felt far too undercooked to resonate on their own merits, and added next to nothing to the main narrative itself. It seems harsh to say, but unless they were willing to make the movie at least 30 minutes longer, it might have actually been better to cut those character arcs completely, and focus on fleshing the far more important (plot-wise) characters of the Turtles, Winters and the generals. As it was, the double-crosses and payoffs pof the finale had little impact, mostly because we didn't really know who these characters were.

It might sound like I'm really putting the boot into the film here, but that's not my intention; like I said, I actually really liked TMNT, because what it got right it got spectacularly right. The mood and look of it were just perfect, Klaus Badelt's score was really quite stirring, and, disappointing lack of Mikey nunchaku action aside, the action sequences were the best that the Turtles have ever been in. More importantly, the Turtles themselves were brilliantly characterised with some great writing, excellent casting and a great brotherly dynamic. Mike and Don were a little sidelined, to be sure, but they made their mark in thetime they had, and left the stage clear for a Raphael-Leonardo that was played to perfection, from the Nightwatcher subplot through to that rooftop fight sequence where every good point about the movie came togther in one flawless scene. When I criticise the other aspects of the movie, I hope I'm being constructive, because I do believe that if they fixed those elements, they could indeed make a sequel that's everything a Turtles fan could want. I just hope they get that chance.

I don't worry too much about the money charts simply because of two words: Uwe Bowell. A guy who is going down as the worst director in the history of film, and a guy who NEVER makes his money back on the god awful movies he creates, yet he still manages to make more movies and yes, sequels too.

The Turtles franchise is capable of surviving regardless of grand failure or grand success. The fact that 3 different turtle shows managed to arise out of the ashes of the dreadful 3rd one says to me that it's a series that won't stay dead no matter what and that this was definitely a step in the right direction.

The thing i loved especially about this movie was the main goal the director wanted to accomplish: use the turtles to their full potential. The CGI allows them such fluid mobility and acrobatic accurate ninja movements that it's amazing to think they got away with such heavy costumes in the 90's films.

I also felt that Karai's story was handled nicely simply because it's obvious from the ending that her story has much more open ground to spread across, especially considering they are aiming towards bringing back her infamous father. The monsters reason for departure I suggest two possibilities.

One - the reason they left were simply because they had no interest, desire, or reason to be in the city. The monsters originated from jungle land considering the opening story and they probably felt more at home hiding around the world. Anyone who found any of the 13 would be dismissed.

The 13 beasts would be written off as another Bigfoot in the making, though this one isn't what i call a strong argument admittingly. However, i feel my second suggestion is solid. Two - I believe the monsters showed up at the EXACT time is an internal clock effect, it's something they are bred with.

That spell or portal is tied directly to them, and much like the 4 titans that reacted to similar "space time" events in the animated "Hercules" movie, that point in time drew them like moths to a fire. The creatures are all connected, we know that for sure considering you need all 13 just to break the curse.

That's my view on the whole "why they came back thing" Ditchy. I think they were worried about making the movie TOO long especially considering they are relaunching a franchise and that's better to be safe then sorry in movie producers cases. Movie times are becoming an increasingly big consideration.

Ever since "Grindhouse" and "King Kong" have failed to meet their money making demands, films are being cut down as studies show they are main source of audience alienation. Or so I've read. In any case, I thought the dividing up of Don and Mike and Leo and Raph was a genius stroke.

Why? Because this movie actually does a BRILLIANT job following the old ones. Casey and Raph share a strong "fighter bond" just like how they started off when they first met in movie 1. Plus, the first movie split the turtles up the exact same way and focused on the exact same turtles in the first film.

Whenever the story focused on Leo fighting or involving with Raph, Don and Mike would have this conversation, or similar ones:

Don: Fight?

Mike: Fight

Don: Kitchen?

Mike: Kitchen

:D I feel that conversation pretty much sums up their involvement in both the first movie and TMNT.

EDIT: On a funny side note, I got bored thinking about the 13 monsters being nameless and all and I actually made up names for em myself. Since the creators didn't seem to do otherwise.

There's a reason Uwe Boll gets his money and sequels. It's because his films actually have a tax loophole. If they fail the studio still gets a profit. In fact more so than they would if the movie were successful.

Actually, according to one source, "King Kong" actually did well, making $500 million worldwide.

Yeah but the thing was, the movie was lined up in direct competition with "Chronicles of Narnia" and Narnia actually beat it out in the long run. Which is extremely funny because Kong had raving reviews and was advertised on practically EVERYTHING known to man.

While Narnia was barely advertised, and was usually picked at by critics. But back on topic, if they do make a TMNT sequel I prey they stick with their original suggested idea and bring Shredder back because I freaking LOVE Shredder. I think he is one of the greatest comic book villains ever.

He was totally bad ass in both movies, his helment in the 2nd film looked especially sweet. I just wish they hadn't butchered his image so poorly in the 2003 series by making him a freaking alien brain thingie.

I don't think that really was to much of a butchering. It seemed like more of a reinterpretation of well-traveled material. I mean the comics don't offer much, seeing as he died in the first volume of the original material.

I actually hope he stays dead. I'd much see the Triceratons or Baxter Stockman show up among others. Or the Utroms who are responsible for the Turtles mutation in the first place. They've tested the waters on how much belief the audience can suspend in TMNT and it seems they can suspend it a lot.